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	<title>Notable &#187; google</title>
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	<link>http://notable.csaetre.com</link>
	<description>Christine Sætre</description>
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		<title>Trondheim Kommune behind Google &#8220;Fog&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/08/04/trondheim-kommune-behind-google-fog/</link>
		<comments>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/08/04/trondheim-kommune-behind-google-fog/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Christine Sætre</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Do better, please]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[google]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[maps]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[transparency]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trondheim]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notable.csaetre.com/?p=156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So it turns out that Trondheim Kommune's short-sightedness is among the reasons we can't see satellite imagery of Trondheim via Google maps (See article "Google Fog Over Downtown" ). The local map and survey office (Kart og oppmålingskontoret) has chosen to prioritize their revenue stream over making the satellite imagery available to its citizenry through channels other than their own, cumbersome, map application. It turns out that they sell map data and imagery—the same data which we as tax payers certainly pay them to administer and make available.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it turns out that Trondheim Kommune&#8217;s short-sightedness is among the reasons we can&#8217;t see satellite imagery of Trondheim via Google maps (See article &#8220;<a href="http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondheim/article1068594.ece">Google Fog Over Downtown</a>&#8221; ). The local map and survey office (<em>Kart og oppmålingskontoret</em>) has chosen to prioritize their revenue stream over making the satellite imagery available to its citizenry through channels other than <a href="http://webhotel.gisline.no/GISLINEWebMapExplorer_1601/Map.aspx">their own</a>, cumbersome, map application.  It turns out that they sell map data and imagery—the same data which we as tax payers certainly pay them to administer and make available.<span id="more-156"></span></p>
<p>Bergen actually chose to donate a set of satellite imagery to Google Maps over two years ago.  Trend-setters historically, Bergen realized the importance of geodata administration as early as <a href="http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/md/dok/regpubl/stmeld/20022003/Stmeld-nr-30-2002-2003-/2/1.html?id=329188">1687</a>.  Today, Bergen&#8217;s citizens, its geeks, school children, and firms are using the satellite imagery on Google maps as a backdrop to  <a href="http://www.dagensit.no/trender/article1305574.ece">build a 3D Bergen</a>, to present tourist information, to enhance their personal home pages, to promote their businesses and organizations, and much much more.  <a href="http://www.tu.no/bildeserier/article154234.ece?start=2&amp;amp;t=04181159">Oslo</a> is enjoying similar benefits.</p>
<p><img class="size-full wp-image-232 alignright" title="missingmap_NTNUandTrondheim_inline" src="http://notable.csaetre.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/missingmap_NTNUandTrondheim_inline1.png" alt="missingmap_NTNUandTrondheim_inline" width="275" height="255" /></p>
<p><strong>Wouldn&#8217;t it be a service to Trondheim&#8217;s citizens if Trondheim followed suit? </strong>A one-time gift of satellite data, even slightly outdated, would be a great start.  It matters not if the imagery doesn&#8217;t get updated for a number of years—as long as we can see the ground at the street level and no longer have to contend with:</p>
<p>This &#8220;error&#8221; message throws an unwelcome, unsightly wrench in many otherwise excellent uses of the Google API for downtown Trondheim.</p>
<p>The issue actually goes far beyond that of providing a bit of satellite imagery through easy-to-use, easy-to-find channels.   Data collected on behalf of the public should be <em>open source</em>, to borrow the phrase from IT. Grass roots movements such as that of &#8220;<a href="http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/index.php">Free Our Data</a>&#8221; in the UK are making an impact in some parts of the world, encouraging some responsive goverment agencies to publish data sets from crime reports to pothole complaints (see also interactive <a href="http://www.berlingske.dk/article/99999999/forbrydelsen/80510026/&amp;amp;template=stdtext_noinfo">crime mash-up from Berlingske Tidende</a>, Denmark).</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>On both sides of the Atlantic there have been increasing calls for national and  local government to open up data. </strong><span id="redesign_default"><strong>The experience of  Web 2.0 suggests that if governments allow free access to the reams of data that  is collected on the public&#8217;s behalf then the public will combine and mash-up  that data in new and revealing ways.</strong> <a href="http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2008/07/free-our-data.html#links">Google Maps Mania</a><br />
</span></p></blockquote>
<p>There is, at least, one sensible soul working at Trondheim Kommune who gets it:  P. Sommerseth. In a recent concurring e-mail, Sommerseth, an editor at <a href="http://www.trondheim.no">Trondheim.no,</a> urged Trondheim Kommune to consider the opportunities, citing trends and the potential cost benefits of supporting both nerds and commercial actors in the creation og &#8220;mash-ups&#8221; and other related data presentations. The response from the <em>Kart og oppmålingskontoret</em> was to stress that it is for our own good that map data be made available only to those who can pay for it through their membership in Norge Digital, reiterating that Trondheim was fully justified to insist on payment given the established &#8220;national precedence&#8221; (most regions don&#8217;t donate imagery or data)  and their mandate found in <a href="http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/md/dok/regpubl/stmeld/20022003/Stmeld-nr-30-2002-2003-.html?id=196962">Stortingsmelding nr. 30(2002-2003)</a>.  The contention is that the consortium &#8220;Norge Digitalt&#8221; is the best way to go, a &#8220;foundation for value creation&#8221;.</p>
<p>I disagree.  We are <em>not</em> served by making said data proprietary.  I think the <em>stortingsmelding</em> was a fine start early this decade,  but is now slightly outdated and perhaps a little narrow minded. Norge Digitalt is surely useful for the larger actors in the market, but much has happened since 2003, and I don&#8217;t believe the <em>stortingsmelding</em> in question envisioned the opportunities of today.</p>
<h3 style="text-align: center;">The Google Map has become <em><span class="italic">the</span></em> interface.</h3>
<p>Is the Trondheim Kommune map website what you think of when tasked with showing the location of your business? Your school? Your upcoming conference? Your last hike?  Google allows individuals to use their code, to manipulate it, to build on it (<a href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps">Read this helpful introduction by Rune Andersen</a>). Trondheim&#8217;s NorKart map application has one or two nice features, but doesn&#8217;t come close to Google maps in terms of usefulness and flexibility.</p>
<p>Trondheim Kommune apparently thinks that Google will eventually pay, though It seems far-fetched to imagine that little Trondheim (166 thousand) is on Google&#8217;s list of places likely to see a return on investment given a purchase of satellite imagery; and equally obvious that Trondheim&#8217;s citizens and business community would benefit from being able to utilize Google&#8217;s open source options to present themselves and their activities.</p>
<p><strong>So come on Trondheim Kommune: Give a little, get a lot.</strong></p>
<p><strong>More reading:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/WDavidStephenson/public-data-power-in-our-hands/">Public Data &#8211; Power in our hands (David Stephenson)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.denverpost.com/viewpoints/ci_9998906">Let our data go free (Neal Pierce,  Denver Post)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2008/07/free-our-data.html#links">Google Maps Mania</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps">Eksempler &#8211;  Googles tjenester </a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps">Maps</a><a href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps"><sup> </sup>og </a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps">Earth</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.eiendomsinfo.no/wps/infoland/hp">Norsk eiendomsinformasjon AS</a> / <a href="http://www.statkart.no/?_to=914">Norge Digitalt</a></li>
<li>Googles tjenester <a class="urlextern" title="http://maps.google.no" rel="nofollow" href="http://maps.google.no/">Maps</a> og <a class="urlextern" title="http://earth.google.com" rel="nofollow" href="http://earth.google.com/">Earth</a></li>
</ul>
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		<title>Awaiting Google Maps Satisfaction in Trondheim</title>
		<link>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/07/16/awaiting-google-maps-satisfaction-in-trondheim/</link>
		<comments>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/07/16/awaiting-google-maps-satisfaction-in-trondheim/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Christine Sætre</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Do better, please]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[google]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[maps]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trondheim]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/07/16/awaiting-google-maps-satisfaction-in-trondheim/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Despite the fact that Trondheim is the 3rd largest city in Norway <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&#38;amp;hl=en&#38;amp;geocode=&#38;amp;q=google&#38;amp;near=trondheim+norway&#38;amp;ie=UTF8&#38;amp;ll=63.422432,10.401692&#38;amp;spn=0.013018,0.037594&#38;amp;t=h&#38;amp;z=15&#38;amp;msa=0&#38;amp;msid=114233400077028390670.00000111e8ab73c6e32c5&#38;amp;iwloc=">the outer edges of the city have satellite imagery</a> on Google Maps, while the downtown and university areas are missing. Most of the hotels in town can’t be seen. The cathedral (Nidarosdomen) can’t be seen. The main university campus (NTNU Gløshaugen) with [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the fact that Trondheim is the 3rd largest  city in Norway  <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;geocode=&amp;amp;q=google&amp;amp;near=trondheim+norway&amp;amp;ie=UTF8&amp;amp;ll=63.422432,10.401692&amp;amp;spn=0.013018,0.037594&amp;amp;t=h&amp;amp;z=15&amp;amp;msa=0&amp;amp;msid=114233400077028390670.00000111e8ab73c6e32c5&amp;amp;iwloc=">the outer edges of the city have satellite imagery</a> on Google Maps, while the downtown and  university areas are missing.  Most of the hotels in town can’t be seen. The cathedral (Nidarosdomen) can’t be  seen. The main university campus (NTNU Gløshaugen) with thousands of students is  absent; but Lade and Leangen we have. An Adressa article mentioned the issues in  April under the banner “<a href="http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondheim/article1068594.ece">Google Fog  Over Downtown</a>“, and I waited patiently for a change.  But no.  The article  got no more of a response than the one can find online.  I shot off a <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/google/topics/trondheim_norway_university_and_google_norway_headquarters_absent_from_satellite_imagery">Get  Satisfaction</a> posting. Google participates, but we shall see.</p>
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		<title>Maps: Google and otherwise</title>
		<link>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/07/16/maps-google-and-otherwise/</link>
		<comments>http://notable.csaetre.com/2008/07/16/maps-google-and-otherwise/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Christine Sætre</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Do better, please]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[google]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[maps]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[trondheim]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notable.csaetre.com/?p=163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>I am a big fan of Google Maps and the <a href="http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/">accompanying APIs</a>. So I have been waiting patiently for about a year and a half for satellite images of downtown Trondheim to become available so that I could start using them. However, I hadn&#8217;t expected to wait this long. Google is fast, improved things [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a big fan of Google Maps and the <a href="http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/">accompanying APIs</a>. So I have been waiting patiently for about a year and a half for satellite images of downtown Trondheim to become available so that I could start using them. However, I hadn&#8217;t expected to wait this long. Google is fast, improved things all the time, and I was sure it would only be a matter of months. But it wasn&#8217;t. Despite the fact that Trondheim is the 3rd largest city in Norway <a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;geocode=&amp;amp;q=google&amp;amp;near=trondheim+norway&amp;amp;ie=UTF8&amp;amp;ll=63.422432,10.401692&amp;amp;spn=0.013018,0.037594&amp;amp;t=h&amp;amp;z=15&amp;amp;msa=0&amp;amp;msid=114233400077028390670.00000111e8ab73c6e32c5&amp;amp;iwloc=">the outer edges of the city have satellite imagery</a> on Google Maps, while the downtown and university areas are missing.</p>
<p><a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/google/topics/trondheim_norway_university_and_google_norway_headquarters_absent_from_satellite_imagery"><img class="alignright" src="http://s3.amazonaws.com/satisfaction-production/s3_images/494/missingmap_NTNUandTrondheim_inline.png" alt="Google satellite imagery missing for downtown" width="275" height="255" /></a></p>
<p>I am certain the imagery exists somewhere. It would have been odd for those areas of the city most interesting to visitors and tourists to have been omitted from the same processes that provided the detailed satellite imagery of the outying areas (the burbs)? Most of the hotels in town can&#8217;t be seen. The cathedral (Nidarosdomen) can&#8217;t be seen. The main university campus (NTNU Gløshaugen) with thousands of students is absent; but Lade and Leangen we have. An Adressa article mentioned the issues in April under the banner &#8220;<a href="http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondheim/article1068594.ece">Google Fog Over Downtown</a>&#8220;, and I waited patiently for a change. But no. The article got no more of a response than the one can find online.</p>
<blockquote><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://maps.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=22040&amp;amp;useful=0&amp;amp;show_useful=1&amp;amp;comment=en%20:%202%20:%20How%20do%20we%20influence%20providers%20of%20map%20data%2C%20and%20who%20are%20the%20providers%20by%20coutnry%3F&amp;amp;#helpful">Google map help</a>: Information is added as it becomes available from our data providers&#8221;. The <a rel="nofollow" href="http://maps.google.no/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7103&amp;amp;topic=10778">Norwegian version</a> states that data in Norway <em>is delivered by NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas. Satellte images are from DigitalGlobe and MDA Federal</em>.</p></blockquote>
<p>All fine and good. But it has been a long time. The issues isn&#8217;t out-dated imagery, it is missing imagery.</p>
<p>While interesting developments on the 3D map front are underway in Oslo with Googles blessing, nothing is happening in Trondheim, Google Norway headquarters. Unable to contact Google directly (thwarted by Google&#8217;s notorious but undersandable loop of FAQ and contact forms) I shot off a <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/google/topics/trondheim_norway_university_and_google_norway_headquarters_absent_from_satellite_imagery">Get Satisfaction</a> posting. Google participates, but we shall see. I suspect that Trondheim&#8217;s local government may themselves be the culprits, perhaps holding onto the existing data to inhibit the competition with the locally produced map service or simply hoping to make a profit?</p>
<p><strong>Maps Related:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.ime.ntnu.no/googlemaps">Overview of Google Maps and Google Earth (Norwegian &#8211; from IME &#8211; Faculty)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondheim/article1068594.ece">Where is downtown (Hvor er sentrum &#8211; Adressa.no 21.04.08)</a></li>
</ul>
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